John Marchione

Narrator: John Marchione

Date: September 10, 2020

Interviewed by: Gary Smith

Place: Home of Gary Smith

Transcript:

Gary Smith:  Gary Smith, on September 10, 2020 in my home, interviewing John Marchione. So John, good to have you here. We’ve talked about it, I’m going to start out with some questions about Bear Creek history, uh, and then work up to the present day. Um, and these are just, open questions. If you don’t have an answer never mind. Where are the headwaters of Bear Creek and where does it empty in to the Sammamish?

Time Stamp: 0’40” clarifying the boundary between City of Redmond and King County

John Marchione: To the best of my knowledge it’s in, uh, up in Snohomish County, um, it comes through by, what’s known as some, well, Bear Creek Golf Club, and um, down, and then um, turns west, uh, in Redmond. It’s been the eastern border of Redmond for many a year, um, and people don’t realize that crossing the little bridge takes them in to the county. Um ....

GS: Back in the day ...

JM: Back ... well, um, even today, uh there’s ...

GS: Oh

JM: Uh, for as long as I remember Bear Creek has been the eastern border of the city of Redmond

GS: And which bridge were you talking about?

JM: Oh, there’s a small bridge at 96th, all along Avondale you make, you go east off Avondale and there’s these little bridges that you don’t realize that as you cross in to someone’s property they’re now in the county because of the, the creek.

GS: And then how, ho about down at the confluence of the Sammamish?

Time Stamp: 1’47” stating the elevation change on Bear Creek at the Sammamish River

JM: So yes. So it heads west um, uh at a certain point and it at least when I was a kid, meaning 1970’s it kind of dropped into the Sammamish River. It was pretty high up. Um, I don’t think that was the original condition at all, because I don’t know how salmon could really pass successfully from one river to the other.

GS: Do you remember the drop, was it, uh ...

JM: I would say ten, twelve feet, maybe?

GS: Really, right at the, uh ...

JM: I don’t know...

GS: ... right at the, uh,

JM: Well there was a bit of a slope, but still, it was, it was, it was something as a kid you didn’t want to, you know, slide down yourself.

GS: And, you’d slide down and end up where?

JM: In the Sammamish River, yeah.

GS: Okay. Um, do you know if Indian tribes had permanent structures anywhere near the creek?

Time Stamp: 2’37” describing a tribal “gathering place for fishing” in “an area rich in salmon”

JM: Um, to the best of my knowledge, no. When we discovered tools there the archeologists told my staff and I that, um, there was uh, tools for fishing and cleaning fish, um, but there did not appear to be any permanent structures, there might be a fishing hut of some sort, but, not a permanent structure.

GS: Okay, now it’s hard to know these things going in to the past, um, but do you know, would you say the tribes had any impact on the creek, um, and let’s take that area down near the confluence with Sammamish. They were clearly down there, and in the archeology, if there weren’t any permanent structures, did they have any sign of what else had gone down or happened or been happening down ...

JM: The archeologist story was it seemed to be a gathering place for fishing. It was known as a great fishing place. I also have heard stories that when Redmond settlers came in the 1860s or so that they said the salmon in Bear Creek were so thick you could walk across Bear Creek, and so it seems to have been an area that was always rich in salmon.

GS: And those pioneers that you talk about, the white folks that came in, uh, did they settle along the creek, and do you have any, I’m sure you know a lot about it, but in particular reference to the creek, did they use that for any purposes that you know of?

JM: My understanding, and I could be wrong, that uh, it was the railroad line that came through and so the settlers were really at Cleveland and Leary Way where that railroad depot was. So they didn’t settle on the creek itself, the European settlers.

GS: Okay. Um, and some of the impacts, obviously the railroad is going to cut a swath through, but uh, since the bridges were over the creek, uh, aside from any uh, requirements for structures with the bridges, do you know of any impacts that the settlers had on the land at, around Bear Creek?

Time Stamp: 5’05” mentioning Marymoor Park and the Redmond Golf Course along Lower Bear Creek

JM: The immediate settlers, no, I mean, uh, uh, south of the creek which became Marymoor Park, was owned as a big um working farm at one point, um, and so that’s always been open space south there, and then north of the creek was the Redmond Golf Course ...

GS: Oh...

JM: Which is now Redmond Town Center. Um, but the Redmond Golf Course had been there since, a long time, probably the 1950s or so.

GS: We can talk about the more recent past ...

JM: Sure, whatever ...

GS: Because that interests me, that area down there, but we will get into the modern period now, and to get your general view, how do you describe, uh, water way and in this case, creek preservation and/or restoration, what’s your view on those?

Time Stamp: 5’59” describing the creek as an ecosystem

JM: Well, uh, a creek as a whole is an ecosystem to itself, so that includes, uh, the water quality, the habitat quality, you know, are there the bugs that the fish can eat, and is the water clean and cold enough for the fish to breed, um, the the rainwater that comes into the creek is it the natural water or is it off of man-made substances, uh, that that carries um, oil and greases into the water system, so I see it as a whole system, and um, uh, I originally learned about whole water drainage basins, in which Bear Creek is part of a basin, um, WRIA8 I think is what they call it now.

GS: Mmm hmm.

JM: Um, and so you, you, the cleaner river is a large enterprise because you have to really start at the headwater and work your way down.

GS: That’s how we’re going to organize this uh, interview too, uh, but stay with the we’ll call it the modern history. When do you date the start of organized preservation and restoration efforts on Bear Creek, just from your knowledge.

Time Stamp: 7’09” referring to 1986 law establishing stormwater utilities as a source for funding surface water cleanup

JM: Probably it’s somewhere between 1985 and 1995. Um, uh, in 19 ... [??]  In 1986 the state created a law for municipalities to create storm water utilities, and, and Redmond was one of the first cities, King County was one of the first counties to create this, and use that revenue for um, cleaning water that goes in to our main streams and rivers, and so, uh, the actual planning probably started in 85-86, and projects probably didn’t get implemented until 1990 or later.

GS: And, at that time, uh, and you can speak, I mean, forward in time as much as you want, what was your role as an observer and a participant in restoring the creek?

Time Stamp: 8’06” focused on his King County internship 1986-87, working on stormwater BMPs

JM: Um, well coincidentally I worked for King County Storm Water Utility as an intern, uh, in uh, ‘86 and ’87, and Bear Creek Basin was one of the basins, and um, and I worked, um, as an intern with some of the planning department and the planning department, uh, tried to identify the basins and the runoffs and come up with best practices to reduce the pollutants that came in to the stream, and also best practices to try to return the runoff to what it would be naturally instead of with impervious surface, so the amount of water and the cleanliness of water and, and then I also as an intern, had an intern role in the storm drainage um standards for King County, um, that guy, Brian Slaten wrote the book, and a couple other people did too, and I helped edit it.

GS: Wow. Interesting. An early start on your conservation efforts.

JM: Yeah.

GS: Um, and in the last thirty, forty years, do you see the tribes playing any roles in recent creek restoration?

JM: I haven’t seen any, um, tribe participation, um, other than if, if artifacts are found, um, the, their, uh, archeological division is very interested, and their, their fish division is also, um, advocates for money and projects that help, uh, fish habitat, but I haven’t seen the um, tribes get involved monetarily, they’re more involved in the permitting and saying what works and what didn’t.

GS: What about NGOs, non-government organizations, which one would be relevant to the creek, to Bear Creek?

Time Stamp: 10’07” referring to SLS (Save Lake Sammamish), Trout Unlimited, and Watertenders

JM: Well, I think there’s um, SOS, Save Our Sammamish, that’s where the water comes from so they’re uh, they’re about clean water and um, a woman named Joanna, can’t think of her last name ...

GS: Buehler.

JM: Buehler, uh, is a big participant in that. Then you have, I think Trout Unlimited and Watertenders, who are, are active in the preservation and restoration of, of Bear Creek specifically and other creeks.

GS: Um, and you mentioned WRIA8, what do you know about it and how do you see its role on Bear Creek?

Time Stamp: 10’47” describing WRIA-8’s restoration strategy, to quote, “The strategy has been to identify the clean basins and keep ’em clean first of all, and then the basins that aren’t so clean are second because it takes so much effort to clean them.”

JM: Well, WRIA8 is the basin that drains into the Puget Sound eventually, and so, Bear Creek is just one of the many creeks, and um, it kind of starts in the mountains, uh, I think in Snohomish County and swoops right in, and, and kind of, Snohomish County then has a ridge and then you get in to WRIA7 I think it is, but um, uh, the strategy has been to identify the, the clean basins and keep ‘em clean, first of all, um, and the basins that aren’t so clean are second because it takes so much effort to clean them, and um, so there’s a rating system, and um, a lot of it is individual house owners that contribute to run off, and, um, houses have impervious surface, fertilizer, grease, gas and oils, um, trying to get best practices, um, to prevent that runoff has been a large effort in the last thirty years.

GS: So that’s uh, a couple different organizations. What about the work of the counties?

Time Stamp: 12’03” referring to King County as the state-wide leader in flood water and surface water management

JM: Um, I know King County has been a leader by creating [?] surface water management utility, um, and it’s charged by property, um, and King County has a, a planning division, um but also an engineering division, a standards division, and so forth. And, so they’re a leader in the state in terms of, of managing flood water, storm water and so forth. Now I would say today, um, the county has a storm water utility but there’s also a flood control district, and the two don’t work well together in my recent tenure. And so, at one point, we were trying to create, um, in the Sammamish, in the Sammamish River right, right past Bear Creek, more storage and fish friendly passages. And, the project was redesigned and there was a turf war of who would build it between the flood control district or the surface water utility. The County, actually two county council members came to me and said, “would the City of Redmond build it?” And I said, “only build if I get full control.” And they said, “yeah, we’ll get you full control.” And after four months it was apparent, “no, we did not have full control,” so we told the County, we gave the County the project back. And it still hasn’t been built as far as I know.

GS: Is that the Willamoor Project?

JM: Yes.

GS: You’re right it hasn’t been built.

JM: And that was six years ago, or more?

GS: It started six years ago at least.

JM: Yeah.

GS: Yeah. Do you know any more about the current situation?

JM: Uh, I knew, well, I knew back then that, um, we needed to work with the tribes for permitting. And I was an early advocate of “let’s meet with the tribes up front,” and I was trying to get that set up and the flood control district kept trying to stop it, and say, “no, no, it’s our, it’s our meeting to set up,” and it’s like, “well fine, set it up.” And, um, just after, [?], cause the physical project should take eighteen months, uh, but so far it’s six years and no ...

GS: And counting.

JM: Nothing, no dirts moved. Do you know more than that?

GS: I do, but this is not my, uh ...

JM: Not your interview.

GS: ... speak, we can talk about it later. We can probably go back and forth a little bit on it. Um. Okay, let’s get to what is really your area which we, is the role of City of Redmond, but I’d like you to also reflect on cooperation or conflict with the county in particular. You’ve already mentioned the flood control district, but the county as well. But, uh, an overall picture of both positives and negatives.

JM: Um, could you ask the question one more time?

GS: Sure. What roles did the City of Redmond play in creek restoration, and include in that your view of the county’s uh, partnership with you.

JM: So, the city, uh, identifies and plans and engineers creek restoration projects. Um, and then when the funding is put together we implement them. Uh, I would say that identifying and uh, projects is the easiest part, uh, assembling the funding can be harder ‘cause there are a lot, a number of permitting agencies, the army corps of engineers, uh, is one of the main agencies, and generally they won’t sign off on the permit until the tribes sign off on the permit. Uh, and then you could have conflict with the county in terms of um, what maintenance looks like, uh, so uh, if, uh, [?] maintenance standards have been in debate, uh, for twelve years or more, um, and what should, how well should it be maintained. Uh, in terms of conflict with the county I think as long as we got [?] council approval we did pretty well.

GS: Hmm.

JM: Um, but we’ve also, Redmond has had some large projects. Um, uh, Mayor Ives before me did a lot of restoration between 85th and 90th of restoring Bear Creek back to its natural habitat. Uh, so if you, you know, walk the Sammamish Trail from there ...

GS: You’re saying Bear Creek, or Sammamish?

JM: Oh, Sammamish.

GS: Yeah, okay.

Time Stamp: 16’46” referring to the “audacious” rehabilitation project at the confluence

JM: Let me go back to Bear Creek, so the audacious project for Bear Creek was to move it away from the freeway to level out the slope from the Sammamish River to Bear Creek so the fish could get up easier, and to create more storage along the freeway for rainwater, so, um, the Sammamish wouldn’t have so much pressure on it. Moving a river is an audacious project, and, I don’t know the exact length, but probably a mile to a mile and a quarter long, um, and uh, it costs about ten million dollars. Well, coming up, well I think more than ten million, but coming up with the last ten million, um, we did, this is where I played a role in working with the state, and, um, the state was um, replacing the 520 bridge, and they need to mitigate the wetland um impacts, and so ...

GS: This is over Lake Washington.

Time Stamp: 17’19” referring to SR-520 mitigation money being used for Bear Creek mitigation

JM: This is over Lake Washington and so we said, “well, there’s no, there’s not many projects right to lake Washington. But 520 does come through Redmond, so moving the creek away from 520, because it’s still the same highway, um, would that count as mitigation?” And eventually the legislature decided it would count as mitigation, and so, um, we received ten million dollars from the state through the Department of Transportation. That was the last ten million to, to move, move the creek and allow the construction to move forward.

GS: Did that also involve some cooperation with County, maybe not for funding, but for, how to do that creek meander?

JM: Um, I don’t remember the county being part of it there.

GS: Um, so let’s keep on the idea of particular projects. So, we’re talking about particular projects on Bear Creek and you mentioned one, the restoration down on lower Bear Creek. Um, before we get in to more detail on that, uh, do you see any uh, what’s your view of the most successful, uh, and maybe least successful projects that had to do with Bear Creek restoration in your time?

Time Stamp: 19’12” referring to success of Lower Bear Creek rehabilitation for water storage and for fish transiting from Sammamish River into Bear Creek

JM: Um, well I would have to say the restoration of the south Bear Creek or lower Bear Creek is significant in terms of the storage it creates, the um, making the travel of the fish easier, the transition between the Sammamish and Bear Creek, um, it also lessens flooding in downtown Redmond.

GS: Mmm hmm

JM: Um, and, kind of further up the creek you go the more [?] it becomes, and so it becomes a little cleaner and all, so the lower part was really the most exposed part. The, so that I think by far was the most significant project ...

GS: Any where you had problems, like, Willamoor  I guess would be a problem.

Time Stamp: 19’57” assembling the properties for room to move Evans Creek away from industrial areas

JM: Yeah, Willamoor and Sammamish a problem, yeah, I think the second most significant is um, well it’s Evans Creek. Evans Creek ran behind our industrial area, and we finally got the property assembled to move Evans Creek away from the industrial area and that feeds in to Bear Creek, and so it improves the water quality of Bear Creek, and uh, so that was probably the second most impactful project. Problems, well, uh, Willamoor project is really a Sammamish, it doesn’t impact Bear Creek so much, um, uh, but, uh, the development east of Redmond and north of Redmond, it does generate more runoff over the last thirty years and so that’s why we need more storage places along the river.

GS: So, with that kind of, uh, analysis, or critical view of what’s going on, how do you picture the long term uh, work on Bear Creek, uh, to include the entire watershed. Do you think it’s been better than average, let’s put it that way, or ...

Time Stamp: 21’15” referring to “very good job” of WRIA-8, identifying and solving Bear Creek problems

JM: Um, I think [?] aid overall does a good job compared to some other [?] in that they’ve identified a critical path to improve the, the basin. Um, um, it is a little hard for me to say it’s better because I haven’t worked in the other basins very much.

GS: That’s, that’s fine. We’re going to talk about, um, the creek as uh, kind of a living thing, but it has its development, uh, and we’ll start, uh, upstream, it starts in Sammamish, or Snohomish county as you said, how would you divide the creek coming out of Snohomish County in your terms of whatever you think is the general picture of Bear Creek, how do you, how do you describe it in the terms coming downstream, uh, if you get my picture, in divisions, in divisions ...

JM: [?] It does, as you head north it becomes more rural, there’s more trees along the banks, um, uh, and it becomes more and more protected, however there is much more additional water running in there ‘cause the development, Snohomish County development is pretty heavy, and so by the time you get to the King County border, you know, kind of the end of Avondale-ish place, um, you get many threatening incidences where the creek is kind of, the water is going to run the banks of the creek, and it’s because there’s more water being fed upstream, um, and so that creates downstream problems of storage and flood control. Uh, so, I think Snohomish County has been lax in there storm water management and that impacts King County and the City of Redmond.

GS: So those are the problems in upper Bear Creek.

JM: Yeah.

GS: What do you see happening as you go down Bear Creek?

JM: Well, we’ve, we’ve started to create um, greater storage, wider creeks, more, a little more shallow, um I’d say you don’t hear about urbanized flooding in Redmond much because our storm water program is so good, I, uh, there’s one street that maybe floods a foot deep or so under the railroad trestle, um, because it’s literally under the water table (laughs) and they’re going to raise that some day, but, the street, uh, but it’s it’s controlling the flood water so it doesn’t just sweep everything out, about the, because you need the rocks and the wood and the other things ... you just don’t want to have like a giant hose wash it out, and um, slowing the water down has been some of the things by meandering it and so forth that Redmond’s done.

GS: So let’s turn to uh, particular sites in city of Redmond, um, what work has the city done, uh, and you mentioned already, lower Bear Creek at the confluence of the Sammamish, um, but what about upstream, Conrad Olsen’s farm, any understanding of that area?

Time Stamp: 24’44” referring to Farrell-McWhirter “fish ladder” in 1975

JM: Um ... I don’t know so much about that, I know more about Farrell-McWhirter.

GS: Okay. And those are both in county, or not?

JM: Uh, Farrell-McWhirter is City of Redmond, uh, park, but it’s not, um, congruent with the city boundaries, it’s um... the city bought it.

GS: And Conrad Olsen, was probably county, yeah?

JM: It was probably county back then.

GS: Yeah.

JM: I don’t know many stories, but in um, Earl McWhirter park, I remember as a, as a ten year old going to a day camp there, a City of Redmond day camp, and we installed a fish flyer.

GS: Hmm.

JM: And, um, I noticed thirty years later they took the fish ladder out, and because I think they meandered it, a more gentle, uh, uh, half of the fish to swim upwards.

GS: And how recently was that changed?

JM: So I don’t know. I remember ... So it was 1975 we installed the um, fish ladder ...

GS: Okay.

JM: And, I don’t know, um, about 2010 or so ...

GS: Oh, quite recently...

JM: Um, I noticed it. It could have been ... I don’t know, I don’t know...

GS: Oh, I see. Oh. Right, right.

JM: .... when it came out though.

GS: And what about uh, coming downstream again, uh, Keller Farm, and I’m wondering if you can think back to the earlier period, whatever you can remember or second hand what you know, about the farm when it was in Keller hands, which goes back more than one hundred years.

JM: Right. What I remember as a teenager, so, let’s say the 80’s, um, is how it would flood in the winter and become like a sheet of ice, because the Keller Farm sits low, below Avondale road, and it becomes a flood plain and storage for Bear Creek when it overflows, so in February, March when it kind of floods and then we get freeze after that, it, it looks like you could skate it. I never tried, (laughs) never went down there. But from Avondale clear across the valley it was just these large sheets of ice, um, that looked pretty solid.

GS: Um, so that gets us to Keller Creek area, Keller Farm, and you’ve already referred, we won’t get back in to the lower Bear Creek restoration, but tell us, uh, what you know about the connection between those two projects.

Time Stamp: 27’17” referring to “wetland banking” by Sound Transit and Department of Transportation at “Keller Farm Mitigation Bank”

JM: Keller Farm was purchased through um, what’s called Wetland Banking, where the City of Redmond, actually a, a non-profit, an NGO, um, how’s it happened ... I think they buy it with city financing, or city backed financing, and then, it, it sold off in terms of mitigation. So Sound Transit bought a big piece of it to cover wetland mitigation in other parts of the project. State DOT bought parts of it, uh, and so the non-profit makes money back, um, to stay even or healthy, um, there not really trying to make a profit, they’re just trying to get these lands, uh, before they are industrialized, or developed, and uh, the Kellers, uh, I don’t know, I’ve heard different versions of the story, but eventually they sold, and um,

GS: To the Whitt .. to the Mitigation Bank?

JM: To the Mitigation Bank. Uh, and, uh, that allowed um, and I think there’s still acres of mitigation to be sold. I think it’s twenty-two acres or more, and ...

GS: Along Avondale, I believe ...

JM: Along Avondale, yeah. Where Avondale and Union Hill Road come together. A kind of triangle was created.

GS: And did that, and maybe I’m wrong here, did that have some connection with the mitigation money that came out of the 520 bridge widening and, uh ...

Time Stamp: 28’56” referring to 520 bridge mitigation money and Sound Transit mitigation money at “Keller Farm Mitigation Bank,” covering John’s role in securing the financing

JM: Uh, I, I think the 520 bridge widening besides moving lower Bear Creek had to buy more mitigation, so they did buy, they are kind of like the first buyer of wetlands, and so you’re kind of having a buyer before you buy it yourself. It’s a good financial situation. But the, Sound Transit, I think in the last year, closed on some land, um, so it could be, it should get its credit for wetland mitigation.

GS: What was your role in, uh, all of that? You’re modest, but you had something to do with that, didn’t you?

JM: Well, I was on the Sound Transit Board and I was Chair of the Sound Transit Board in um, 2019. Vice-Chaired two years before that. Um, and um, just really putting the right people together, figure out does it make sense. It wasn’t a political arm twisting deal by any means. It’s like, uh, it was more efficient for Sound Transit and cheaper for them to mitigate buying into a Wetland Bank then it was to create a retention pond. And, a retention pond, the places ... they’re building in urban areas and retention ponds in the middle of your urban areas don’t fit.

GS: Huh. Um, you’ve mentioned it before, but I’ll let you repeat it if you just want to, uh, use the same language that you did before, what, how do you evaluate the storm water services in the Bear Creek Water Shed, uh, you must have some comparison to make, but what’s your valuation?

Time Stamp: 30’37” referring to stormwater management in Redmond (compared to other Eastside cities) and describing the City as “doing the work up front. . . so an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure. Redmond did it well.”

JM: My valuation is that, uh, City of Redmond has done an excellent job with um, uh, the Redmond-Sammamish Valley, including Bear Creek, managing the flood and storm water. I remember as a council member in 2004-05, somewhere in there, there was a big rain storm. Then there was another one in 2008, and I remember hearing all the urbanized flooding, and Redmond never came up. And I said, uh, “listen, uh, to other city’s reports and you’ll never hear Redmond’s name mentioned as the urbanized flooding.” Now, Redmond had like the second highest storm water utility rates in 2003. And, in 2008 when I became mayor, we held them flat because we had done so much good work up front. We got a, we got ahead of the problem, or more, more ahead of the other cities in the area. And so, I, the council said, “well, we’re the highest.” you know, “shouldn’t we do something different?” And I said, “No, we’re just gonna hold steady,” and you know, “watch all those other cities pass us as the standard.” And Kirkland, Bellevue, Mercer Island, Sammamish, they all just blew past us, so instead of, I don’t know, I can make up numbers, but instead of around $23 a house they were up at $32 soon enough. They were at $14 when we were at $23. So doing the work up front, you know, an ounce of prevention is a pound of cure? Redmond did it well.

GS: And, maybe you can just project that into the future. What benefits do you see accruing to the, uh, to the natural environment in Bear Creek in particular from the city’s work?

Time Stamp: 32’27” speaking of the improving the “dynamic natural environment of fish and birds and bugs and so forth,” he said, “So now let’s just work on harder problems of creeks that feed into Bear Creek and clean those up to then again improve Bear Creek quality.”

JM: Um, higher water quality, higher, um, what would a great word be, um, the dynamic environment, the dynamic natural environment, of fish, and birds and bugs and so forth. Um, and so now, let’s just work on harder problems and creeks that feed in to Bear Creek and clean those up, to then again improve Bear Creek’s quality once again.

GS: Anything else you want to add, John, just wrapping it up...

Time Stamp: 32’58” referring to Bear Creek as a salmon resource “It’s an important river. It’s always been known as a salmon river . . . so for 14,000 years people have liked Bear Creek salmon”

JM: Nothing I think of. It’s an important river, It’s, it’s always been known as a salmon river for you know, the artefacts were dated 12 to 14,000 years ago. Um, and so for 14,000 years people have uh, liked Bear Creek salmon.

GS: (Laughs.) Thank you, John.

JM: Thank you, Gary.